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Episode 21: The Art of Self Redesign A Conversation with Kris Kendall

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Kris spent the first half of her life working in Silicon Valley for large and small companies, building marketing programs to grow them to billion-dollar enterprises. And then she realized she had dreams of her own. Now, she enables women over forty to identify and pursue their passions and interests to create the second half of their life that brings fulfillment and joy.

In this episode of The Kerry Barrett Show, host Kerry Barrett interviews Kris Kendall, the founder of Fulfilled After Forty. Kris helps women over 40 find their purpose and passion in life, guiding them toward their goals for the next chapter. Kris shares her journey of transitioning from a successful career in Silicon Valley to pursuing her new dreams and how she helps others do the same. Tune in to learn more about finding fulfillment after 40.


Kerry: Thank you, dear listeners and viewers for joining me today on The Kerry Barrett Show. I’m excited to introduce you to our guest for this week’s episode. This is Kris Kendall and she is helping you feel fulfilled after 40. That’s sort of it in a nutshell, but Kris, it’s great to have you with us.

I’m super excited to chat with you. Do you want to sort of introduce yourself and share some of your expertise with the audience? 

Kris: Yes. Thank you, Kerry, so much. As you mentioned, I’m Kris Kendall. I have a company called FulfilledAfterForty. And I enable women over 40 to really, find their purpose and their passion and kind of figure out what’s going to, what they want to happen in the next chapter of their life and help them reach those goals.

Kerry: So let me start by asking, because I fit into this demographic, but by a fairly wide margin. You sort of started out your professional career working in Silicon Valley, as I understand for both very large and some small businesses as well. And you built marketing programs for them and, you know, you grew them into these huge organizations.

When was it though that you realized, you know, while this is fun and it’s worked well for me and you know, the first, let’s say half of my life, it’s no longer where I want to be. I have, you know, these new dreams. How did you come to that realization? Was it over time? Was it a moment in time? Tell us a little bit about that. That’s really interesting.

Kris: I wouldn’t say it was a singular moment in time, but, probably in my late 30s. I realized that I needed to have my own things going on as my kids started to get a little bit older, and a little bit more independent. I wanted to, figure out what I was going to do outside of work for the rest of my life.

And, I started writing books. So I actually started writing these silly romance novels. I have a lot of books out there right now. And so that’s kind of where it started for me. And then around the time that I was in my early forties, a lot of my friends who were in that same age, they started to come to these you know, points where they were either dealing with divorce, they were changing careers, their kids were getting ready to go off to college or at that stage of independence in their later teens where they just didn’t need mom around anymore, as often and they really had nothing.

They kind of had this, like, I don’t know what to do with myself. You know, awakening, like what next? And so I just really started to put, you know, my efforts into helping them, focus on what they might want. And then, that’s kind of where it all started for me.

Kerry: So how did you develop this program or this plan or this sort of coaching system that, it sounds like you went through and maybe that was where you came up with the framework and then that you bring other, people through as well? How did you develop it? And then does it occur, I guess, in a sort of a linear way? Is it the same process basically that everybody goes through that’s tailored to their, own needs and their own stage?

Kris: Yeah, so I think it was, kind of early in 2020 when we were all in that lockdown stage and not socializing in the same way, not going out, not doing all the same things that we, had been doing in the past, that I started to really focus on what’s next for me and, life coaching was what I’ve been wanting to do.

And it was like, I have the time now. I’m just going to do it. So I began certifications with a few different companies as a life coach. I realized that was exactly what I wanted to be doing. And so I began coaching first just with friends. and then eventually taking on clients.

It’s very different for each person. It’s definitely customized based on where they’re at. Because everybody’s journey is a little bit different. They all, you know, we all need different things at different stages. And so for some people, that means, starting a business and, you know, maybe making some extra money.

For other people it’s just, you know, creating a friend group or some sort of a support system that maybe they haven’t had in a long time. So really as people come to be the very, first session might be figuring out what they’re looking for. And then after that, it’s completely tailored based on what they need.

Kerry: It sounds like it’s not just, let’s say for a woman who has been, in an executive role or in a role within an organization, and then is looking to create her own business, somebody who has been a business owner or somebody who is you know, working as part of a larger organization and still wants to say there, this is for them too. It’s not just about professional changes. It’s about you as a person and your whole, life sort of planning and creation. Is that true?

Kris: That’s true. Yeah, exactly. For someone who has professional or career ambitions, we can work in that direction for others. You know, maybe they’ve always been at home and they, don’t really remember how to do things for themselves, you know, or like how to do fun stuff. We have to go back to like when you were in high school, what did you like to do for fun?

You know, when was the last time you remember just doing your own thing, whether that’s painting? You know, writing poetry, sitting on a beach, like anything. It’s amazing how easy it is to forget the things that we love until somebody really asks us to think about it and like write them down, you know, they almost don’t exist.

Kerry: Yeah, that’s it so it’s very timely because I was just onboarding with someone else and she asked me that question, like, what do you like to do for fun? I had to write it down. I couldn’t just sort of like ponder in my head. It was part of that, you know, the form I had to fill out.

And I was like, I have no idea. And I actually did a LinkedIn post about it. Has anybody else forgotten how to have fun? Because I don’t even remember who I was before kids and before, you know, establishing my own business. It’s shocking how quickly that stuff gets lost or how you don’t even notice it maybe is a, better way to phrase it.

Is that one of the biggest challenges that women are facing, like remembering who they were at their core, are there other things, like are there other challenges that you see happening more often, or are more urgent perhaps?

Kris: Yeah, I mean, that’s certainly a big one. I think another one that is surprising is when I ask people like who are your best friends or who, are your closest friends. Sometimes they’ll be like, oh no, I’ve got some great friends, you know, so and so and so and so. And then it’s like, okay, when was the last time you saw them?

Well, six years ago, I saw them at a high school reunion, and two and a half years ago, I talked to that person on the friend, it’s like on the phone. But you know, there are so many women who don’t have like a network of friends, like somebody that you could literally call right this minute and be like, hey, remember that thing we were talking about last week?

This is what’s going on with it. Or I had a horrible day. Can we just talk for 20 minutes? You know, that is another really important part of finding fulfillment and happiness. And again, just realizing who you are and the kind of person you used to be and trying to get back some of that.

Kerry: I don’t want to paint with a broad brush, but I will say that I feel like this problem that we’re talking about, not just the fun, but really all of it. I don’t want to say it’s entirely unique to women, but I do feel like, at least compared to the men and the women that I speak to, it is a challenge that It’s a challenge. More women deal with it, or maybe it’s that more women are aware of it and are at least thinking about it. Is that the case in your experience? And if so, why is that?

Kris: It has definitely been the case. And I think what I’ve noticed, at least with a lot of the women that I’ve worked with so much of their, you know, twenties and thirties revolved around time with other parents of kids, you know, the same age as their kids. So they’re going through the school years together, the play groups, the teams, the sports, the dance teams, all the games, et cetera.

That’s why their social systems are all around their kid’s activities. And then once their kids are on their own, either they’re driving themselves to practice and games and stuff, or they just aren’t doing it anymore. Maybe they’ve left for college. There’s not really that group of like every Saturday I’m going to see seven people that I really like and can chat with. 

Now there’s nobody that I see on a regular basis. It can cause depression and a lot of, you know, anxiety about like, do people like me? Do people care about me? If I disappear tomorrow, will anyone notice? Except, you know, my kids, when they call for money?

Kerry: So you’re telling me I’m not the only one who has these thoughts?

Kris: Not at all, not at all.

Kerry: Is it really like the kid element and everything else that women’s sort of like? decide to wait for that. And I’m going to put this in air quotes, 

” Right time to begin doing this or the right time to find happiness or fulfillment. “

Is it because we’re so tied up with all of the mental load of children, et cetera? Or is there some other reason that we wait? And then ultimately, I guess the second part of that question is if so many of us wait, do we actually do it when we have the time? Or do we fall into these habits and just sort of become comfortable in that pain or that depression?

Kris: I mean, it’s not only women with children obviously. So it could be, you know, women who’ve never had kids and, you know, for the first half of their life, they’re so busy and they’re so caught up in their career and the other things that they, you know, chose to do their other priorities. That at some point they realized like, oh, I’m kind of by myself now and I’m getting ready to retire or I have this big life change at work or I’m going to be moving or something.

And maybe they have to start fresh and it’s really hard to start fresh when you’re literally all by yourself. Or maybe they’ve been there, you know, married and they’re in a partnership, but something, you know, that separation happens or they just realized they need more. You know, I think they need something else, something that’s just for them.

And it’s easy to ignore it for a long time when you’re just busy paying bills, paying a mortgage, and working your way up career-wise. And at some point that does slow down and you have to sort of evaluate your life and say, am I where I want to be? Is this it? Am I happy? And to your other point of, like, do they do anything about it?

A lot of times, sadly, they don’t. They don’t even really know that there’s an option. Like, What do I do? Maybe I want friends. I don’t know how to even start to have friends or I want to go back to painting. Do I just run to the hobby store and buy paints? I mean, is that it? And sometimes, yes, like literally they just need permission to do these, take these simple steps forward. They just don’t even know how to start. 

So that’s where I try to, just push them, give them those nudges in the right direction to like, if this is what you love, this is what you want to do, I give you permission to do it. You know, sometimes that’s all a person needs to hear.

Kerry: It is interesting, you mentioned the permission element, which I think, you know for whatever reason, sometimes it is that voice of authority that has to tell us, like, it’s okay for you to step outside of the four walls that you are in either physically or maybe mentally and explore some new space or get back to who you were.

You mentioned that at some point, you know, whether they’re working with you, or maybe as a woman is contemplating doing this sort of work, they need to take stock or evaluate. I think was the word that you use, you know, where they are. Are there questions? I’ll piggyback again off something we said earlier in this episode, which was, you know, as I was going through this onboarding form, I couldn’t just think about what I liked in nebulous sort of vague terms.

I was required to put them on a piece of paper in black and white. And that’s when I started to realize, like, I don’t even know what I like anymore. And in fact, the coach was like, you need to get out more after I read this. You sound like you’re depressed, which was rather insightful. But my point is it wasn’t until I did that work that I actually recognized where I was.

So what are the maybe it’s a series of questions or a series of scenarios or situations, but how can a woman start evaluating that? Like what does she need to be taking note of or what questions does she need to ask and answer for herself?

Kris: Yeah. So one of the first things I always ask any person that I’m working with is, if you could have the perfect life, your perfect life in 12 months, what would that look like? Where do you live? Who are you with when you wake up in the morning? What are you gonna do next? What are you gonna wear?

What are you gonna eat? Like what is a perfect day for you? And if they say what I did this morning is exactly my perfect life. Everything’s great. They’re there Most people, that’s not the case.

Kerry: I was going to say, have you ever had somebody say that?

Kris: Yeah. It’s always like, well, I wish that I was living, you know, in the other part of the country next to my family, or I wish I was doing this, or I wish I had this kind of job, or I wish I had this kind of money or this kind of ability to travel.

And then once we kind of have that picture of what they want, then we can start talking about, okay, what are some actual things that we can start doing to get you there? Those things are not impossible. Usually, it’s not anything out of the realm of possibility. So it’s like, there is a way that you can get there if that’s actually what you want. So let’s, figure that out and just start working toward it.

Kerry: I think sometimes that, one of the other bigger challenges and to some degree, this is changing, but for a long time, certainly with like my mother’s generation, I’ll use that for an example. You know, there was like this very sort of like, first, you do this, then you get married, then you have kids and then you are,

you know, whatever, empty nest or something. And at this stage in your life, you’re too old to make any sort of changes. You’re already in it and there’s no breaking free. Is there at this stage, you know, in this era that we live in a point where you are, in fact, too old to make changes or, you know, is happiness, wealth, fulfillment, whatever it is?

Are they available to you when you make changes at any age, even if you’re in, let’s say your seventies or eighties?

Kris: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think obviously it depends on your health and, you know, your ability to control your life and what you do on a daily basis. But certainly, I’ve worked with women in their fifties, sixties, and even early fifties, and 70s who are like, you know what? I used to love writing.

I always wanted to write a book. You know, is there any way in this possibility in the world that I could write a book? It’s like, yes, let’s start. We are going to do this. I’m going to, you know, walk you through some of these steps. We’re going to get you a book written. And you know, like, if this is what you want, that can definitely happen.

Or you, you’ve wanted to travel the world. Excellent. Let’s figure out who could travel with you. How much is it going to cost? What are the places you want to visit? Let’s put a plan into place. So there are certainly things that at any age, are still available and able and excited to make changes.

Kerry: Do you find that along with that, though there about, you know, you can make these changes pending physical ability, et cetera? You can make these changes, but do you find in your experience that the older somebody gets, perhaps the more sort of set in their ways they get, or maybe a better way with more positivity of phrasing that is? Are there some additional, like, mindset, perhaps, issues that you’re helping somebody through?

Kris: Yes, for sure definitely there’s, I mean, I think everybody has mindset issues and, certainly there are people who are like, well, I’m, you know, already 65 and I don’t have a huge savings. So I don’t know what my options are, but I’ve always wanted to do this thing, or I’d really like to move to this part of the country or something like that.

But usually, if they’re reaching out to me, they want it enough that they’re at least open-minded to the possibility that something could happen. And sometimes they come to me just thinking like, well, I just wanna make some friends and I don’t even know where to start. Or something’s not feeling good in my life, and I just want to figure that out and from there it might evolve into something much bigger.

But usually, people are pretty open-minded that they’re ready for change, maybe they don’t they don’t know what it is or how to do it, but they just want something. To be completely honest, there are some people who just want someone to talk to.

They just need a friend and they just want a friendly face to chat with. And that’s okay too. I actually have a product called, the best friend experience. And I will literally just be a friend to people. Sometimes that’s all you need is just a person to like visit with. And it’s hard to find that.

Kerry: I love that you mentioned that, and you’ve mentioned friends a couple of times now. And I have a couple of questions about that. Because I do, you know, I’ve moved around a lot, and I know other women in my space have experienced you know, similar things in their lives, and it can feel really lonely. 

And then we start feeling like, oh, gosh, why don’t I have friends? Am I not likable or is it, or am I not doing the right things? It’s very easy to get in your head once you start thinking about it. And I guess my question is why is it so important to have that network? And I’m glad to know that I’m not the only person who feels like they don’t have it sometimes, but it sounds like it’s really common. So why is it so important to have that support? And then, well let me start with that question.

Kris: Yeah. I think that it really goes down to just sort of our need for a village. Lack of a better word, like, you know, we need people around us that we can, experience good times and bad times with, you know, even when you’re having a great day and you just want to talk to somebody and tell them like, you’re never going to believe what just happened at work.

Or I found a hundred dollars on the sidewalk today. Whatever it is, it’s nice to have someone to share. And certainly during the harder times, just having a person to talk to, or a group of people who can support you, tell you that things are going to be okay, remind you about the good things.

You know, when you are sick, remind you why you should fight and that there are people who care about you and love you and need you in their lives, et cetera. So it’s just super important at any age to have that group. And as we get older and we’re like, you know, okay, for the next 15 years, my whole world’s going to revolve around my family or my work or my clients or whatever.

And then all of a sudden those are gone or different and you’re like, I haven’t talked to people in forever. I don’t even know how to call them. Is their number still the same? And then you just feel like, oh, it’s too late. It’s been too long. I can’t just call. I can’t just send a text to say, hey, how’s it going?

Right. That’ll seem insincere. It’s not just do it to send the text. I was thinking about you today. Remembered a funny time from 25 years ago. Hope things are well. And if you can just start up that conversation, it’s amazing how like, happy you can feel after just a quick exchange with somebody whom you’ve shared experiences with.

Kerry: And I imagine that, you know, as, sort of awkward or maybe uncomfortable as we might feel reaching out to somebody whom we haven’t spoken to, 9.9999 times out of 10, they’re going to be thrilled that you reached out because they might’ve been feeling the same awkwardness or hesitance in reaching out on their side as well. People appreciate that.

Kris: Definitely, yeah. I’ve never gotten a text from somebody that I haven’t heard from in a while and been like, how dare they reach out to me? You know, yeah, no. It’s always like, oh my gosh, look, it’s them! I haven’t thought of them in three years and I’m so happy to see that things are good. You know, yeah.

Kerry: Do you find that this friendship issue is one of the more common challenges that women face when they are sort of redesigning this second part of their life? Or are there other challenges or issues that you see coming up also, you know, on a regular basis?

Kris: Yeah, you know, this is the time of our lives where we’re often in kind of a sandwich situation where we’ve got parents that are aging, we’ve got kids that are maybe, going to college or whatever. We’re kind of dealing with both being caretakers and responsible for two different generations, with very different needs, but then also in some cases kind of similar needs.

And so it can be super overwhelming. And so I think that the friendships, number one, having them is one thing, but then there’s also on the flip side of that, being around in like bad friend circles or having the one person that you talk to the most is very negative or they’re always bringing you down.

They’re always telling you, you know, why you should be mad about something, why you should… It’s kind of these toxic relationships, right? Like, so some of us, we get caught in this, like, but they’ve always been my friend for the past 30 years. I can’t walk away now, but that’s just what, you know, bringing them to this, like creating their depression or creating this sense of unhappiness in them.

And sometimes you have to cut those relationships off. You really have to walk away and say, like, I love you and I’ll see you at Christmas time. I can’t be there for you on a daily basis ’cause I need to have a, healthier, network of people in my life.

Kerry: That’s probably one of the biggest components of self-care, at least in my experience, that is overlooked. And when I say my experience, I just mean from talking with other women, you know, that I’m friends with. Like it is, you know, we don’t view that as an element of self-care. We view it as I’m maintaining this relationship with this person because we’ve always been in it and I feel bad cutting them off. But really, that is such a crucial I think component in taking care of yourself and sort of redesigning a life with happiness and purpose. Has that been your experience and your client’s experience too?

Kris: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. That’s almost always part of this process is like taking away the bad elements and then adding a few good ones if you don’t already have, you know, the positive people there cheering you on and rooting for you.

Kerry: If someone has questions about how to do that in a tactful way, what is your advice for that conversation? Especially if, you know, you’re going to get some pushback or some blowback from family or other people that are also in that friend group.

Kris: Yeah, you know, I’ve had to do it myself. And it is a very difficult conversation. And I think the most important thing you can do is just be honest and upfront and make it clear what the boundary is that you’re setting and that you’re going to stick to. So if that means saying you’re my sister, my cousin, my best friend, whatever. We’re like sisters. 

I love you, but am making some changes in my life and I feel like I need a little bit of distance from our relationship in order for me to focus on what I’m trying to pursue over here. So I probably will not be picking up the phone as often. I won’t be reaching out to you on a regular basis.

If you need something, you know, choose where that relationship is going to be, it may be literally during the holidays, or you’ll hear from me on your birthday. Or like, you know, we just need a break, just kind of like a breakup, right? We need a break. And I won’t be calling and I won’t be answering your calls anymore.

So take care. I care about you as a person, but I need some space. And it is really difficult and the other person might not be receptive and that, you know, It could get to the point where you start to realize hopefully how negative it is, and that you’re able to just like block them, cut them off, and really just not engage in whatever they’re trying to pull you into.

Kerry: Put those boundaries up. So it’s not that you actually have to tell them like you’re a real hole or you’re a toxic person. 

 Unless there’s somebody who you want to maintain a relationship with and you have to have a hard conversation about how that relationship is going to change and what you would like it to look like

You mentioned or we have talked, I guess, a couple of times about, you know, the challenges that come along with reframing your life in terms of the people who are in it and the friends that you have. And we asked a little bit, or I asked a little bit about pushback that may come from the people that are around you. A lot of times I hear about women who, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be about redesigning their life, but it could be anything that they’re trying to change.

They’re trying to lose weight and they get pushed back from their family because they’re making, you know, new decisions and they’re changing habits, or they could be looking to reenter the workforce and they get pushed back from their friends about, you know, again, similar things, you know, making changes, changing habits, et cetera.

Do you find that women also experience pushback from family or close friends, you know, the people they want still in their circles about making these kinds of changes? And if they do, how should they talk about it with their family or their friends?

Kris: Yeah, I mean, I think that that is mostly where the negative Influences come from. You know for so many of the people that I talked to it’s their mother or their sister that is like kind of the worst Influence in their life that’s just constantly telling them no, you’re being ridiculous.

You can’t start a new job. You’ve got to take care of your husband. You’ve got bills to pay. You can’t be thinking about this. You can’t do that. You’re too old for that. What are you thinking? Do a 5k run a marathon. No, you’re gonna kill yourself. No, don’t do that.

You know like all the reasons why they can’t do it. And mostly I would say that comes out of either jealousy or like well, they don’t want you to be doing this great thing when they aren’t gonna do it. You know, they don’t believe that they can do it. So they don’t really want you to do it either. Or they feel like you might leave them behind and truthfully, you probably will have to leave them behind maybe sooner rather than later.

But you know, once you start to focus on yourself and protect your time and your energy and your happiness, the people who aren’t part of that, they do get left behind and they do kind of get turned off from being in your circle. 

And that’s what you need to do to protect yourself. You know, if you’ve spent the first 40, 50 years of your life worrying about other people and making sure that they don’t have hurt feelings or whatever, at some point, you have to say, now it’s my time.

Now I’m here for me and I’m going to do what I need to do. And if they don’t like it, you know, get on the train or get off, but this train is moving in a good direction. And it’s okay if you’re not on it, you know, I’ll see you on Mother’s Day or whatever. I’ll check in with you now and then to make sure you’re alive or not, depending on the relationship. But it’s okay to move on without those influences.

Kerry: Yeah, I’ll check it the next step.

Kris: Exactly. Exactly. You know, and sometimes they come around. Sometimes they do realize like, okay, I can see that you’re happier. I can see that you are doing these things. So now I’m going to support you a little bit more. And maybe they want to try to get on too. And that’s great. But if they don’t, it’s okay to say, you know, I’m sorry, it didn’t work out. We had a good run. We had a great time together our time is over. You know, not every relationship. Lost forever, and that’s okay.

Kerry: It sounds so refreshing. It sounds like after doing this, we would all emerge, you know, feeling perhaps and hopefully a lot lighter. As you work with, clients. Are there any, there is, you talked with women who are sort of going through this or contemplating it. Is there anything that they are surprised about, or maybe that you are surprised about when it comes to the results?

They’ve sort of come through this process. They’re out the other side and they’re like, you know, I, knew this was what I was working for, but I had no idea that I would also, you know, experience this or get this out of it. Is there anything that? comes up that is surprising for them?

Kris: Yeah, I mean, I think most of the results are surprising to some degree. Because although people start the process thinking like, well, that would be really awesome if this thing happened, in the back of their mind, usually they’re kind of skeptical, they’re not really sure that they could do it, even though other people have done it, they don’t know that they can do it.

So, a lot of times it’s like starting a little business, doing something that they love as a hobby and, maybe making some money for it or starting you know, a bigger business, whatever it is. So once they start to have a little bit of money, once they start to have a little bit of success, once they start to get really positive feedback for what they’re doing, that’s usually the shocking part.

Like, wow, people actually like this thing that I love doing and they want to give me money for it. That’s amazing. If they are trying to lose weight or get healthy, when they get there, I think that for so many people it’s like, why did I wait so long? You know, I’ve wanted this for my entire life. Why did I wait until I was 55 to finally start walking around the block every day and start putting my health first? And why did it take you know, a serious health scare to wake me up? I should have done this a long time ago. So yeah, I think that that’s really, common.

Kerry: The through line of this conversation is don’t wait. Do it now.

Kris: Yes, what are you waiting for? You know, you’re not gonna, yes, we’re not getting younger. That’s really what it is. Like, we have so much time left. Do you want it to be great or do you want to continue to be miserable? You choose.

Kerry: You know, you want to make changes the easy way or do you want to keep moving forward feeling like you’re trudging uphill through molasses in January?

Kris: Exactly, exactly. Like we can put together a path that can get you things quickly or you can just continue to be miserable. And why, would you do that?

Kerry: All right. Well, so speaking of putting together a path because we’re at a time right now. But if people are interested, Kris, and learning a little bit more about you or how they might be able to work with you, where should they go? 

Kris: Yeah. So I would say visit fulfilledafterforty.com. I have a podcast that I do and it’s live coaching sessions. And that’s sort of like a consultation freebie. So if somebody wants to have a free session, we can do it as an episode of the podcast. Otherwise, if they’re ready to just get started, I have different packages.

I have a two-day intensive where we can just sit together and like map out everything they need in two full days. I’ll travel to their location. And so we can just like to make some progress very quickly.

Kerry: I love that. Okay. And I have two more questions, which I should have asked you at the start of this episode. How old are your kids?

Kris: So my kids are 18 and 21. So they’re, definitely at that stage of like fully independent. And I’m at that stage where I have so much time on my hands. I’m filling it up with things that I love and this is really, what I love doing. Yeah.

Kerry: And okay. And your romance novels. Do you care to share? Are you under a pen name? Titles? 

Kris: A couple of pen names. 

Kerry: Where should they look for you?

Kris: I don’t usually share them. One of them is called Aspen Drake. Those are contemporary romances. I have another pen name that’s a little bit, more risque. So I don’t usually share that publicly. 

Kerry: DM me, okay?

Kris: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We’ll, we’ll do it on the DM. Yeah.

Kerry: I love it. I love it. Kris, it was so nice to meet you, and it was wonderful chatting with you. Thank you so much for being part of the show.

Kris: Thank you so much, Kerry. It’s been fun.

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